Submitted by Moderator on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 13:20.
Father Claude Barthe has given an interview to journalist Daniel Hamiche. It was translated into English by an Anglican priest, Anthony Chadwick. We present our translation of the English version. Abbe Barthe has just published a small "bomb" called "La Messe à l'endroit". In 1955, author Paul Claudel wrote a remarkable article "Mass in reverse", to stigmatize what at the time were only liturgical experiments. Now Father Barthe wants to "Mass in the right direction." Create support for a whole school of thought, described by the Church as "the reform of the reform".
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Your most recent book (Claude Barthe, "La Messe à l'endroit. A liturgical Nouveau mouvement") took us by surprise, because you are known as a defender of the traditional Mass and now you are dealing with the so-called Mass of Paul VI. Why is your interest in it?
rather than defending I'm interested in the transformation of the other, ie, that of Paul VI. In 1997, ten years before the Motu Proprio, I published a book of interviews, "Rebuilding the Liturgy". Interviews all about the state of the liturgy in parishes. It is the same theme in this book. Sure the Motu Proprio of 2007 gave new life to these ideas. The basic idea is that the two lines of criticism to changes under Paul VI - ie frontal criticism that seeks to promote the wide dissemination of the previous Liturgy of St. Pius V, and criticism of reform, which calls for a "reform of the reform" and looking for a change in the liturgy of Paul VI - are increasingly connected. The "reform of the reform" proposal can not be achieved without the support of a celebration as widespread as possible of the traditional Mass.The traditional liturgy can not wait to be rehabilitated massively in parishes without recreating a live setting, this would be the work of the "reform of the reform".
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The Extraordinary Form traditionalists believe that the Missal of Paul VI cannot be saved and would have to be discarded. Now, you think it can be reformed and even "enriched". How?
First, I think it is unrealistic to believe that we can use a magic wand and make that all the Masses are celebrated according to the old form in every parish in the world. However, I note - with many others, some of them in very high positions - that the Missal of Paul VI contains an almost infinite number of options, adaptations and interpretations, and that a progressive and systematic choice (or consistently progressive) of the traditional possibilities traditional makes it possible for a "re-traditionalization" in parishes, and this legally (according to the letter of the law and its spirit). It is a simple fact: the many pastors (I've compiled a quick list in France, which obviously I should not post, but it is impressive) who are practicing, often step by step, this "reform of the reform", most of them celebrate the Traditional Mass also. To answer your question, I would say that I think the Roman liturgy can be saved, and this is already happening in practice through a double action: make more and more known the rite of St. Pius V, along with the "reform of reform ". This will enable, quoting a famous speech of Paul VI, reform removing everything that is old and obsolete, because it is not traditional. We'll see what is saved after this operation ...
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You make us discover a lot of relatively unknown liturgical history of the last forty years. While supporters of the old Mass are not interested in a reform of the new Missal, its' "moderate" followers, a small minority, continuously promote reform. Could you briefly explain this position?
This is what we might call "criticism of the reform" of the new Missal. In short, and to speak only of France, we are reminded of theologians such as Louis Bouyer, who actively participated in the conciliar reform but quickly came into conflict with some aspects (the meaning of the celebration, for example). The Abbey of Solesmes, and to varying degrees some of the houses that depend on it, have accepted the reform, but entirely in Latin and Gregorian chant. The community of St Martin, Bishop Guerin, also opted for the Missal of Paul VI, but in a very traditional interpretation. Bishop Maxime Charles, rector of the Basilica of Montmartre, and then Father Michel Gitton, former pastor of Saint Germain l'Auxerrois in Paris, have worked to preserve what could be saved from the ruin. And, more importantly, is the phenomenon of Ratzinger.
Already in 1966 Joseph Ratzinger had reacted too harshly at the Bamberg Katholikentag about the reform that was underway. The fight against what he believes is a "false spirit of the Council" has been substantial he who was appointed Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1981, and later became Pope in 2005. In matters relating to the liturgy, Joseph Ratzinger was much farther ahead than the other reformers. Now we know that he organized a meeting of cardinals in Rome on November 16, 1982, "about liturgical matters", and made all the prefects of the Congregations who participated in the meeting affirm that the "old" Roman Missal should be " accepted by the Holy See in the whole Church for Masses celebrated in Latin. " It was 1982, exactly a quarter century before the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum.
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Your book is subtitled "A new liturgical movement". Is it a desire or an event - that about Benedict, who seems to be leading this "reform of the reform" there is gathering a group of influential prelates and priests who try to promote it for good?
Indeed, based on the works of Joseph Ratzinger ("Ratzinger Report," "My Life," "The Spirit of the Liturgy", "A new song to the Lord", "The Feast of Faith"), he has built a new generation of theologians, historians of worship, senior officers. Now form a circle of thinkers of the "reform of the reform" - a new liturgical movement as he calls the Pope - and support the Motu Proprio. None of them - and especially the first one, the Pope, either - try to promote "reform of the reform" with texts, decrees, or a new Missal that united the two rites, one Missal of Benedict XVI is hereby added to missals of St. Pius V and Paul VI.
No, they want to proceed by example, exhortation, education, and more importantly still, evoking the theme of the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans, causing a "healthy tension" between the form now known as "ordinary" and form known as "extraordinary". This is the goal of restoration of Ratzinger since 1985, seeking to influence the course of events of the council, but in a hortatory, not coercive way. The "reform of the reform" already exists in many parishes. Enough to encourage, expand and, especially, to reach the diocesan level. It Would be more appropriate, rather than by the priests and the Pope, for the bishops work this out. Imagine the wonderful effect of restoration, not only liturgical but everything that comes with the Liturgy: vocations, doctrine, catechesis, religious practice, all this produced by a bishop, then two, then three, and so on., Which might carry the shrine to the back of the cathedrals, restoration of the communion rails, reintroduction of Latin and Gregorian chant, and to offer the Traditional Mass regularly. Again I emphasize the same: this "reform of the reform" can not be achieved without a wider celebration of the Mass according to the traditional Missal. And, conversely, that the traditional liturgy in ordinary parishes there, you need a return to traditional sources, represented by the "reform of the reform".
Important officers who are in favor of this new liturgical movement also encourage the reduction of the concelebrants and concelebrations, reducing the number of the Eucharistic prayers, the reintroduction of elements of the traditional Mass in the many "holes" of the Form of Paul VI (genuflections, kissing the altar, ancient signs of the cross during the Canon), the replacement of the Masses with huge number of attendees - in which the cult is transformed into a show - by Holy Hours, blessing with the Blessed Sacrament, and the restoration of peace sign as a sacred act, not as a sign of social courtesy, etc..
This book also brought me many positive reactions of priests. Every idea is useful corrective if put in practice and is not a mere pious wish. Most come from priests who celebrate both the old and the new form of the Mass. 40 years after this unprecedented upheaval in the history of the Roman Rite represented by the reform of Paul VI, and in the ruins of secularization in the Catholic world that the amendment - at least - not prevented, it is clear that there is a climate of "return" in a minority, but that is expected to grow. Of course, the Liturgy is just one of these aspects, but given the nature of the liturgy, it is a very significant aspect. Source: Inglés Catholic Translation: The Attic Jerome
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